A Conversation about "Anti-Americanism": What Are the Consequences of This Idea?

The following conversation is an ongoing debate that ensued from an earlier post I wrote. In light of Michelle Bachmann's (R-MN) desire for the press to investigate anti-American sentiment in Congress, my questions have to do with this poster Sandie Coleman's similar perspective. What percentage of American voters see the country in this way? How will that affect the leadership abilities of an Obama presidency? And more importantly, how does that howling call to weed out "anti-American" sentiment from the American populous affect Americans' interaction with Americans?

Sandie Coleman:

Yes I do believe someone that hates America would serve in the Senate AND run for President. Thats destroying from the inside out....imploding if you will! Anyone that would vote for this man is unpatriotic and should leave this country. AMERICA, Love it or Leave it!

When Barack and his wife SALUTE the Flag, Swear Aligence to Her AND Sing the National Anthem...hell will probably freeze over.

These people are planning a bigger change in America than their supporters are aware of...AND IGNORANT TO!

GOD BLESS THE U.S.A.
Sandie Coleman | 10.21.08 - 6:40 pm | #


Anonymous:

Hey everybody, I found an idiot!!! Her name is Sandie Coleman. Does any circus need someone to shovel the elephant shit? Sandie Coleman is doing it already for free!!!
Anonymous | 10.21.08 - 9:56 pm | #


Sandie Coleman:

Spoken like a true Traitor. Your agenda is to keep Americans from recognizing you and people LIKE you. It did not work on me. Joseph Stalin once said he would destroy America from within by destroying our Patriotisim, Spirituality, and Morality.... Patient gradualisim takes a liftime to achieve and I have lived a long time. I have witnessed what these people have done to One Nation Under God, it is heartbreaking that you and people like you, DO NOT.
Sandie Coleman | 10.22.08 - 7:18 am | #


Gray Kane:

Hi Sandie,

I can understand why you would reject Anonymous, because Anonymous has rejected you. But I fail to see how Anonymous's rejection of you equates with his/her being a "traitor." That person's thinking differently than you by no means signifies that his/her thinking is anti-American.

You're calling Americans "traitors," and per the way you're denouncing Anonymous, you're calling everybody who supports Obama a "traitor," many of whom have served this country in a variety of capacities, including as valued members of our military. Are former and current US soldiers "traitors" if they support Obama?

If you are calling all Obama supporters "traitors," then per Obama's lead in every national poll, and per his statistical lead in 36 out of our 50 states, you're calling the majority of Americans "traitors." If that is what you mean, your argument doesn't make any sense.

As for Obama's own patriotism, even McCain has said that Obama is a patriotic citizen and that no one should fear an Obama presidency. McCain has said himself that his argument is not that Obama is anti-American. His argument is that Obama misrepresents facts and that therefore the American voter should not trust Obama's claims that he won't raise taxes on the middle class. McCain also does not trust Obama's judgment. But McCain has denounced the argument that Obama hates this country. McCain calls that belief a "fringe" belief and has repeatedly repudiated it. He has repudiated your belief as a "fringe" belief, Sandie.

Statistically, it is very likely that Obama will win the election. If that happens, my question is, how will you continue if this is the way you'll see the president of the United States, the majority(?) of the members of Congress, and the majority of Americans? How will you be able to function in what you perceive to be an anti-American America?
Gray Kane | 10.22.08 - 8:33 am | #


Sandie Coleman:

When Obama gets on national television, MEET THE PRESS, and states that he refuses to swear alegience to Our Flag and he wants to be President....YES HE IS A TRAITOR...and therefore, anyone that supports him IS ANTI-AMERICAN
Sandie Coleman | 10.22.08 - 8:38 am | #


Sandie Coleman:

McCain's statement about Barak's patriotisim leads me to believe in his ignorance as well as yours. I have watched this Nation go from one of Pride AND Integrity to compromised moral, political and spiritual beliefs. As a result, we are hated, ridiculed and laughed at throughout the World. Just because the majority votes, and I am having a hard time finding people that are actually voting for him. The polls say so, but IS IT TRUE? And does it really matter if there IS an election, the election has already taken place and McCain has surrendered. I think the majority of the American people are selfish and ignorant and together these elect the wrong people in office. Obviously you are one of them.

I, for one, obey the laws of the land, but I don't have to like it. I couldn't STAND the Clinton's, and look how they cheapened the White House, but I just waited until we could vote them out. I don't believe we will have that luxury with Barak and I think people are too stupid to know it.
Sandie Coleman | 10.22.08 - 8:46 am | #


Gray Kane:

Actually, what you're describing from "Meet the Press" never happened. I think you're getting this from a circulating email that has been disproved by factcheck.org:


http://www.factcheck.org/ askfact...em_conveys.html

Here's the transcript from that segment of "Meet the Press":

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/2444...4445166/page/2/


MR. RUSSERT: ...and they talk about the flag pin and about your wife Michelle's comment about being proud for the first time in her adult life as an American, and talk about Reverend Wright saying, "God damn America," and talk about standing at the national anthem at the steak fry and not putting your hand over your heart, all those things, challenging your patriotism...

SEN. OBAMA: Well, first of all, you know, I have never challenged other people's patriotism. I haven't challenged Hillary Clinton's or John McCain's, and I will not stand by and allow somebody else to challenge mine. The fact that I'm running for president right now is an indication of how much I love this country, because it has given everything to me. This country has been a great source of good. I've lived overseas and seen the difference between America and what it stands for and what other countries oftentimes stand for and where they fall short. I've, I've said before, my story's not possible in any other country on earth. You know, when I think about this country, I think about my grandfather fighting in World War II in Patton's army; I think about my grandmother staying home--staying back and, and working on a bomber assembly line while she was raising a kid in--as, as they're coming out of a depression. And, and so this country is the--it defines, for me, what's possible for not just me, but for so many people who see this as a beacon of good, including my father, who originally came here seeking an education in this country. So I love this country. It is what I have been fighting for, a--that America lives up to its values and its ideals. And that's what I think the people of Indiana and that's what the people of North Carolina are looking for right now. What, what--they love this country as well, but what they've believe is that the values that have built this country, the belief in--that hard work is rewarded, that you can raise a family and have health care, and buy a home and retire with dignity and respect, that those things feel like they're slipping away. And what this campaign's about, what I think this moment is about in America is whether or not we are going to fight for those ideals that make this country great, and, and if we miss that opportunity, then I think we will be doing a disservice to future generations. So I'm happy to have a debate, an argument with the Republican Party or any of my opponents about what this country means, what makes it great. And what makes it great, ultimately, is its people and how the American people are able to live out their America... (See the link for the whole article.
Gray Kane | 10.22.08 - 8:57 am | #


Sandie Coleman:

If the following doesn't get your attention and your emotions to> react--------NOTHING WILL!!> Read the whole thing-------or just the phrases in red if you must.> Regards,> David W. Trekell, Concerned Citizen>> The following is a narrative taken from Sunday Morning's televised"Meet> The Press'. and the author is employed by none other than theWashington> Post!! Yeah......the Washington Post of New York and Los AngelesTimesfame!!> Must say that I'm dually impressed..................>>> From Sunday's Televised "Meet the Press" Senator Obama was asked about> his stance on the American Flag. Obama Explains National AnthemStance>> Sun, 07 Sept. 2008 11:48:04 EST, General Bill Ginn' USAF (ret.) asked> Obama to explain why he doesn't follow protocol when the NationalAnthemis> played.>> The General also stated to the Senator that according to the United> States Code, Title 36, Chapter 10, Sec. 171... During rendition of> the national> anthem when the flag is displayed, all present except those inuniformare> expected to stand at attention facing the flag with the right handoverthe> heart. At the very least, "Stand and Face It">> Senator Obama Live on Sunday states, "As I've said about the flagpin, I> don't want to be perceived as taking sides, Obama said. 'There are alot> of people in the world to whom the American flag is a symbol ofoppression.> And the anthem itself conveys a war-like message. You know, the bombsbursting> in air and all. It should be swapped for something less parochial and> less bellicose.> I like the song 'I'd Like To Teach the World To Sing.' If that were> our anthem,> then I might salute it. "We should consider to reinvent our National> Anthem as well> as to redesign our Flag to better offer our enemies hope and love.> It's my intention,> if elected, to disarm America to the level of acceptance to our Middle> East Brethren.> If we as a Nation of warring people, should conduct ourselves as the> nations of Islam,> whereas peace prevails. Perhaps a state or period of mutual concord> between our> governments. When I become President, I will seek a pact or agreementto> send hostilities between those who have been at war or in a state of> enmity, and> a freedom from disquieting oppressive thoughts. We as a Nation haveplacedupon> the nations of Islam an unfair injustice. My wife disrespects the> Flag for many personal> reasons. Together she and I have attended several flag burning> ceremonies in the> past, many years ago. She has her views and I have mine". Of course> now, I have> found myself about to become the President of the United States and Ihave put> aside my hatred. I will use my power to bring CHANGE to this Nation,> and offer the> people a new path of hope. My wife and I look forward to becoming ourCountry's> First Family. Indeed, CHANGE is about to overwhelm the United States> of America.>> WHAAAAAAAT the Hel l !!!>> Yes, ladies and gentlemen, you heard it right. This could possibly beour> next President.
Sandie Coleman | 10.22.08 - 9:07 am | #


Gray Kane:

Sandie,

I provided the links to both factcheck.org's disproving of that email and the transcript from Obama's interview with Tim Russert on "Meet the Press." You're citing an email. I'm citing the original source and providing you with the link to "Meet the Press" to prove it's the original source.

Your misconceptions are coming from fictions that have been created and disseminated in order to get a person's preferred candidate into office "at all costs." The particular cost of this email that you're citing is the loss of truth, honesty, and American respect for other Americans.
Gray Kane | 10.22.08 - 9:38 am | #


Sandie Coleman:

Hi Gary,
This is another respected site to check facts http://www.snopes.com/politics/o...obama/ obama.asp. Search this and you will see there is a picture of your Sen. Obama NOT saluting the flag and NOT singing our Nationl Anthem. There is an Ancient Writing that says, "My people parish for a lack of knowledge". I am not easily fooled, Gary. Try your tactics on someone else.

Sincerely,

A True Patriot
Sandie Coleman | 10.22.08 - 9:49 am | #


Sandie Coleman:

Dear GRAY Kane,
This is an excerpt from Michelle Obama's thesis from Princton University. The fact that SHE can't get over "feeling black" IS NOT the fault of ther so call "white" friends. No one even MENTIONS COLOR EXCEPT BLACK PEOPLE!!!!!

"My experiences at Princeton have made me far more aware of my 'blackness' than ever before," the future Mrs. Obama wrote in her thesis introduction. "I have found that at Princeton, no matter how liberal and open-minded some of my white professors and classmates try to be toward me, I sometimes feel like a visitor on campus; as if I really don't belong. Regardless of the circumstances underwhich I interact with whites at Princeton, it often seems as if, to them, I will always be black first and a student second."
Sandie Coleman | 10.22.08 - 9:57 am | #


Gray Kane:

Yeah, I've seen that picture. Pictures, like soundbites, misconstrue events by reducing them to a single instant, without the surrounding context that gives them their meaning, like these pictures:

http://images.theage.com.au/2008...CCAIN- 420x0.jpg

http:// punchup.files.wordpress.c...john_mccain.jpg

Neither picture has been manipulated, and yet neither picture accurately represents what happened.

By the way, your primary argument up until now has been based on a fiction. You now easily switch to new evidence without so much as a reflection on the fact that you insisted on the accuracy of a fiction. That shows you're more interested in discrediting Obama than you are in evaluating information in search for the truth. If you were interested in the truth, then your discovery of a falsehood should cause you to wonder.

But the fact is, you've made up your mind, Sandie. The truth is now irrelevant to you. You just demonstrated that your opinion is more important to you than any evidence that even you can present.
Gray Kane | 10.22.08 - 10:23 am | #


Gray Kane:

Also, I'm not sure why you are bringing up Michelle's racial awareness as evidence of "anti-Americanism." If Michelle feels like an outsider for being black, then what she is outside of is whiteness, not America. The two are not equivalent, Sandie.
Gray Kane | 10.22.08 - 10:28 am | #


Sandie Coleman:

The fact that Michelle has to "discuss" her blackness says she is still angry over OUR AMERICAN HERITAGE.

In regard to jumping to another subject; I went to "check facts" as you prompted me to do and upon looking, I STUMBLED UPON those items. It was more evidence as far as I am concerned and it doesn't matter what the circumstances were surrounding the "non salute", it doesn't wash. If you want to be President of an organization you must be in AGREEMENT WITH that organization. A house divided will fall!!! I believe that Obama brings division not unity and THAT is why I refuse to vote for him, and THAT is why I call him and his "partner" anti-american. Although, I said "Not Partiots" the anti-american was YOUR WORDS.
Sandie Coleman | 10.22.08 - 11:16 am | #


Gray Kane:

Sandie, you used the word "traitor." Traitor is as anti-American as you can get. When I acknowledged that anti-Americanism was the crux of your argument, you confirmed it with the following statement:

"YES HE IS A TRAITOR...and therefore, anyone that supports him IS ANTI-AMERICAN"

My point about your switching evidence is not that you just discovered new evidence and that's not fair. Of course that's fair. That's understandable.

My point was that you repeatedly cited a fiction as a fact, and then when that fiction got revealed for what it was, you didn't care.

That shows that your argument is not dependent on its evidence. On the contrary, the evidence you choose is dependent on whether or not it supports your argument, which is why all of the evidence you've provided is flimsy at best. None of it proves your point that Obama is unpatriotic or anti-American.

You insist that for a black person to feel uncomfortable around whites is for a black person to be unpatriotic, but that doesn't make sense. Blacks form this nation's "heritage" as much as whites do.

Hypothetically speaking, let's say you as a white person were to feel uncomfortable when you're the only white person in a black community. Would that make you unpatriotic? If the black race's discomfort with the white race equates with a lack of patriotism, then the other way around is also true. Because both races are equally a part of our nation's heritage.

If you felt discomfort around Native Americans, does that make you anti-American?

Do you see how silly this is? The logic is flawed on many levels, Sandie.
Gray Kane | 10.22.08 - 8:55 pm | #


Sandie Coleman:

Once again you distort the facts yourself sir. I still quoted you in the anti-american word usage...that was the point. I did say he was unpatriotic because he refuses to swear allgience to the American Flag....Patriatisim 101. I have not had the opportunity to fully investigat your claim regarding the Meet the Press interview. The lady that forwarded it to me, takes pride in checking those things before sending them therefore, I must confess I did not check them myself. Again, when I went to do the research, I came across those things. Now, the words you put in my mouth. At no time did I EVER say that to be black is to be unpatriotic. What I said was, She (M. Obaba)was whinning about Princeton MAKING her feel uncomfortable when in fact, no one can make you feel any thing. You either are comfortable in who you are, or you or not. When a drug addict says, well they made me feel...so I used...everyone in America, including you, say...THEY ALWAYS BLAME SOMEONE ELSE. Well, this is the same thing. No matter how many opportunities some folks have, they will always find fault and try to change and bend it until it is as distorted as they. I for one am sick and tired of people coming to America, or being born here, and trying to change it. There are changes that were needed and they occured. To change it in the way the liberals have done, has the result of utter destruction. I hold moral values to be the most important weapon we have against our enemies. I consider our patriotism to be the gauge by which we can "see" how hard you might fight to keep us safe. I am not stupid nor prejudice or anti anything except anything that tears down our moral, spiritual and patriotisim as a United country. If that makes me bad...so be it!
Sandie Coleman | 10.22.08 - 9:28 pm | #


Gray Kane:

You cited Michelle Obama's comments about race as support for your argument that Obama and his supporters are unpatriotic. When I questioned your use of the citation, you supported it by saying,

"The fact that Michelle has to 'discuss' her blackness says she is still angry over OUR AMERICAN HERITAGE."

I responded by identifying that "our American heritage" includes black sentiment. I also pointed out that a black American's discomfort around whites no more equates with anger over "our American heritage" than a white American's discomfort around blacks. None of this is a twisting of your words, Sandie.

As far as I can see, you're blaming other Americans for your own personal discomforts in this country. Other Americans are not unpatriotic because you miss the way you were raised, Sandie.

Also, you blame "liberals" for what? For Bush's "socialist" bailout of the banking system? Bush devised the bailout. And he's also built the federal government into a huge intervention into personal lives, with even a new cabinet position that has repeatedly violated our American civil liberties that were granted to us by the US Constitution. He doesn't lead. Bush ignores problems until a catastrophe happens, and then uses that catastrophe to take more federal power over our personal activities.

Who are the "liberals" you're blaming? Me? I voted Republican until 2004, and then in that election I didn't vote. Bush and our current Republican leadership destroyed this country's fundamental principles of individualism, personal liberties, human rights, and private ownership of capital (our lending institutions).

The Republican party has baited us with words like "patriotism" and "family values," ideas we all agree with. But the Republicans reduced those values to just words, flags to be waved to attract voters like you, Sandie. The real meaning of those words, which you pretend to defend, is lost because of those you support.

Bush fabricated the Culture War so the Republican party could divide and conquer our country, ignore our founding principles, and focus on little more than augmenting their own power. If you were to ask me, their actions equate with what you call destroying this country from the inside. They're the ones you should be worried about.

But instead, you're so focused on identifying "anti-American" sentiment in American citizens that you've positioned yourself against (anti) Americans. You came here to this site, ignored traditional values like "treating others with decency and respect," and spewed a litany of defamatory words against me and Americans with words like "unpatriotic" and "idiot."

Re-read our conversation. I have not called you a single name, Sandie. I don't believe in name calling. It goes against my core values.

But you don't share those traditional values. You claim you do, but you don't demonstrate them in your actions.

And you have the nerve to tell me that
Gray Kane | 10.23.08 - 2:31 am | #


Mrs. Gray:

You know what's patriotic, Sandie? Embracing diversity of thought, even if you personally disagree with some of those thoughts. Embracing the freedom of discourse, even if the discourse makes you uncomfortable. Acknowledging that the way you--as an American--see the country is not the same as the way another American sees the country.

We all have a different lens by which we view the American story, because we all have different sub-stories within it. And that is okay. The founding fathers began to argue about the intent of the Constitution less than ten years after they wrote it. Protest and dissent is not only PART of the American tradition - it is THE VERY ESSENCE OF the American tradition. And yes, "change" is part of that. John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, John Hancock, et. al. certainly recommended a radical departure from the status quo. One might call them--gasp!--"liberals."

And it was also "liberals" who brought us abolition, womens' suffrage, the Pure Food and Drug Act (so that you know you're buying hamburger meat and not minced cat), and the environmental regulations that protected the U.S. from becoming the cesspool of pollution that most of Europe is right now.

If there is any sentiment that is anti-American, it is the attempt to silence those on the other side by declaring their views "unpatriotic" because they are not in line with YOUR agenda. That's encouraging groupthink, and it is antithetical to everything that America is supposed to represent.

America is not a collection of symbols--a flag, an anthem, a uniform. America is freedom. And yes, that includes the freedom of thought that you are so ardently trying to demolish.
Mrs. Gray | 10.23.08 - 4:37 am | #


Sandie Coleman:

Obviously you are one of the idiots that thinks it is a "freedom of thought" that says it is ok to murder millions of unborn lives everyday. If it makes me unpatriotic to say this is wrong then the shoe does it. Yes I do want people that want to destroy us from within to get out of America. You liberals call yourselves American's but what you really are is selfish, you want what you want and you want it at the expense of the unborn and the ignorant. It makes me sick to know you share the same planet with me.

The whole point in the "black" conversatioin is this....I refuse to give place to this stupidity any more so this will be my last statement...maybe. So here it goes...we have all see on the evening news how the young black men go into elite colleges, join the Frats and then turn it into a drug distribution center. When interviewed one of these "people" said...we don't want to fit in, we want to tear it up". I have lived among black, both good and bad. I can tell you for a fact that the bad are bad to the bone and want nothing more than to destroy our Nation. When people with this mentality get into places of authority, they destroy everything they touch. I used to think my family was wrong in trying to stop desegragation but, hindsite is 20/20 vision. All we have gotten through trying to be nice is drive by shootings, epidemic in drug abuse and our Courts clogged with unnecessary lawsuits. However, this is America and we are supposed to just "let anyone come in and change it because it is progress". Bull! Now these two idiots with their "Poor pitiful me I'm black" attitude wants to come in and run for office that neither are qualified to go anywhere near...because of their attitudes.

I am sick of liberals and their media that they use to do their bidding. After all, all you hot shots know advertisement works..on idiots. I don't listen to ads or you...I CAN NOT BE FOOLED.

It is not MY OPINION that I seek to preserve, it is the Nation and its FOUNDATION that I seek to preserve and the very fact that you are too blind to see that tells me that you are part of the problem.

Once and for all! WHITE PEOPLE ARE NOT THE PROBLEM ANY MORE! Whoopie Goldberge and her loud stupid mouth, along with all you other idiots that want to start trouble where there isn't any...you are the problem. I am very sick of dealing with babies in leadership.

Bill & Hilary rented out rooms in our nations capital when they were in office. Hillbilly idiots in office. I can only imagine the family bar-b-ques that Barak and Michelle will have! THIS CHEAPENS THE OFFICE. In doing so it brings our enemies to our door step. Everyone blamed Bush for 9/11---IDIOTS.. Eight years of no pride in their work is what brought on 9/11 and we can expect more of it coz the party will be on if they get elected.

These two people HATE AMERICAN HISTORY and they want to change America at it's foundation...THATS WHY THEY ARE ANTI-AMERICAN....yo
Sandie Coleman | 10.23.08 - 7:45 am | #


Sandie Coleman:

As an after thougt. Women's Lib, and the liberals brought us that, brought us latch key kids and kids killing kids. No I don't support Women's Lib either. I don't support our government "buying houses" for everyone, the American Dream is one that everyone has an equal opportunity to pursue, NOT REALIZE NECESSARILY! The LUCKY get to realize the dream...NOT HANDED THE DREAM...ACHIEVE IT! You liberals want our Government to be Socialist, giving to everyone. That isn't the way it works here and you need to get your stupid ass out of the Country if that is your mentality. BETTER YET GET A JOB!

All men were created equal. We have equal opportunities TO WORK AND ACHIEVE. NOT equal oppotunities for our Government to Support us! There are legitimate Social needs but when you start DEMANDING stuff...no one wants to give it to you.

This selfish attitude is why I say Liberals ARE THE PROBLEM. Have you ever noticed that these people that are hollering are also getting checks from the Government. What they are saying is "we want a raise". Well so do the rest of us but we "PROVE WE DESERVE IT THRU HARD WORK" and then we get that raise.

I'm thru giving place to your stupidity GRAY KANE. Which makes me wonder, Gray, cross between black and white? See you don't even know WHO you are how can you possibly have an intelligent comment when you are confused as to that!

You need to set your stupid ass down and shut up. Better yet...get off the planet!
Sandie Coleman | 10.23.08 - 7:56 am | #


Sandie Coleman:

Just because I ignored YOUR ASSESMENT of Meet the Press interview, does not mean I refused the "truth". What happened was, I refused to TRUST YOUR SOURCE! I have other places I can check things out that are not your bias. It is YOU who thinks YOUR OPINION is so valuable that you call me close minded because I don't adhere to YOUR WAY!

AGAIN....you and MRS. GRAY are IDIOTS! I hope to NEVER MEET YOU!
Sandie Coleman | 10.23.08 - 8:00 am | #


Sandie Coleman:

A Russian arrives in New York City as a new immigrant to the United
States .. He stops the first person he sees walking down the street and
says, 'Thank you Mr. American for letting me in this country , giving me
housing, food stamps, free medical care, and free education!'

The passerby says, 'You are mistaken, I am Mexican.'

The man goes on and encounters another passerby. ' Thank you for having
such a beautiful country here in America !'

The person says, 'I not American, I Vietnamese.'

The new arrival walks further, and the next person he sees he stops,
shakes his hand and says, 'Thank you for the wonderful America !'
That person puts up his hand and says, 'I am from Middle East , I am not
American!'

He finally sees a nice lady and asks, 'Are you an American?'
She says , 'No, I am from Africa !'
Puzzled, he asks her, 'Where are all the Americans?'
The African lady checks her watch and says...'Probably at work!'
Sandie Coleman | 10.23.08 - 8:03 am | #